you realize that whether or not you agree with the protest, there's a bigger issue here of constitutional rights. if you're happy that OWS will end because you disagree with the message, then you're extremely lost and unable to see the big picture.
tea baggers should be FLIPPING the fuck out right now about these cops breaking up protests. this should give them a spaz attack maybe even an aneurism but it doesn't, they just sit there and say "obamacare bad" "liberals bad" ::throws their own shit against the wall:: this is exactly what they were all bitching about when they started up. constitutional rights.
Thursday, October 13, 2011
Monday, October 10, 2011
Fair, Unfair, and Ron Paul
Unregulated capitalism/crony capitalism, which we have today, is very unfair and has a lot wrong with it.
Fair = properly rewarding those for their hardwork = what capitalism should be
unfair = subsidising the status quo to remain wealthy, in power and w/out competition = what current US capitalism is.
Paulites want to double down on the deregging. Because banks and wallstreet are already too heavily regulated. So is big energy.
Basically they're idiots.
Fair = properly rewarding those for their hardwork = what capitalism should be
unfair = subsidising the status quo to remain wealthy, in power and w/out competition = what current US capitalism is.
Paulites want to double down on the deregging. Because banks and wallstreet are already too heavily regulated. So is big energy.
Basically they're idiots.
failed argument steeped in logical fallacy
""Bringing history into the mix is NOT my argument. My argument is strictly NEEDS and VALUE based. History only brings things into context. The Federal Reserve was established about 100 years ago by Wilson, Gold standard dropped by Nixon, and all in between and NOW all the sudden we have people protesting the man. Things are bad, don't get me wrong, but they aren't THAT bad....well, not yet anyway. These next 12 months will definitely be one for the history books. Regardless, how is the general concept of "greed" (which is completely RELATIVE) warrent violence? I know things aren't violent yet, but all the great protests/revolutions have ended with bloodshed."""
You didn't bring history into your "The world has always been unfair. THEREFORE it can never change nor should we try" That's not history it's a failed argument steeped in logical fallacy.
Things are very bad.
perspective helps. How old are you? What do you do for a living? Did you grow up in wealth? Atheist or theist?
Perception is reality. Where you come from/what you are helps define your perceptions. It's relevant this "Debate" or whatever.
Corporate apologists' narcissism hard to take seriously
Harshing protesters flatly = lil bitch
Protesting has lead to great change in this country. You disagree with something and therefore it's worthless? Whenever a stance is taken and the point to back it up is narcissism it's hard to take seriously.
You're suggestion above is over simplistic and assuming. Not taking into consideration larger contexts of depressed economy, minimal current demand, minimal ability to procure that which is in demand, eco climate that doesn't support small biz models etc.
I run a small business and hope these protests continue. If anyone on here thinks we live in a true capitalistic society they're fucking retarded.
And a persons value isn't directly equal to how much money they can generate from milisecond trading. Another overly simplistic stance of yours.
Essentially the concept of value to you is only = to money. Pretty sad world you live in.
Protesting has lead to great change in this country. You disagree with something and therefore it's worthless? Whenever a stance is taken and the point to back it up is narcissism it's hard to take seriously.
You're suggestion above is over simplistic and assuming. Not taking into consideration larger contexts of depressed economy, minimal current demand, minimal ability to procure that which is in demand, eco climate that doesn't support small biz models etc.
I run a small business and hope these protests continue. If anyone on here thinks we live in a true capitalistic society they're fucking retarded.
And a persons value isn't directly equal to how much money they can generate from milisecond trading. Another overly simplistic stance of yours.
Essentially the concept of value to you is only = to money. Pretty sad world you live in.
gigantic facts, protest validation
To simply ignore GIGANTIC facts like the complete erosion of the manufacturing industry in our country (less than 7% vs. 53% at its peak) and to somehow insinuate that jobs are out there if you put the real hard effort into it when they are simply not (and won't be because we are competing with slave labor) is childish.
That coupled with the fact that anyone would attempt to justify the complete and utter exploitation and irresponsible behavior of much of the financial industry (specifically commercial banks now acting as investment banks and the total lack of regulation or proper legislation that allows this) is willfully ignorant.
The value of financial derivatives alone, mostly now issued by a few commercial banks, are valued at four times the Gross World Product. We have been completely raped by financial tools that were poorly understood or purposefully exploited. We are paying the price, literally through our tax dollars and the good faith in the US dollar. 16 trillion dollars in printed money that was issued by the FED and for which we have no information about.
So, despite the misguided manifestation of these protesters and their general naivety and apparent youth, simply suggesting what they are, at the core, protesting is not valid and that they are 'whiny' is borderline infantile itself.
That coupled with the fact that anyone would attempt to justify the complete and utter exploitation and irresponsible behavior of much of the financial industry (specifically commercial banks now acting as investment banks and the total lack of regulation or proper legislation that allows this) is willfully ignorant.
The value of financial derivatives alone, mostly now issued by a few commercial banks, are valued at four times the Gross World Product. We have been completely raped by financial tools that were poorly understood or purposefully exploited. We are paying the price, literally through our tax dollars and the good faith in the US dollar. 16 trillion dollars in printed money that was issued by the FED and for which we have no information about.
So, despite the misguided manifestation of these protesters and their general naivety and apparent youth, simply suggesting what they are, at the core, protesting is not valid and that they are 'whiny' is borderline infantile itself.
Your Grandma does not provide much value to society.
First off, this isn't whining: It's a protest. Thanks.
And you're right, we're not all delt the same cards. That's why we have civil society in order to level the playing field. Are you saying that investors and hedge fund managers have more value than the people at NASA? Do they have more value than your sick grandmother who can't work? Do you have more value than a janitor? Income != Value. Income is about how much money you can juice out of everyone else. That means that typically the higher your income, the more convincing of a thief you are. Who actually produces value, eh?
________________________
Umm...okay, if you really want to debate.
1) Financial people do create a lot of value. They provide money for companies to function to hire you, to offer your grandma a job, etc. In fact, they provide loans to companies that make parts for satellites, etc. that NASA uses. It's not anyone's "right" to just be given money that isn't there's to do with it what they wish. These financial people have to make hard decisions deciding what are good investments and what are not. Unfortunately, they are often not punished in the longterm financially, but that does not negate the value that they provide to society as a whole
2) your grandma who cannot work DOES NOT provide much value to society. Maybe she DID when she worked or raised her kids who raised you, but that work is passed. Going back to the banker. How much money has your grandma loaned to strangers to start business and employ people that aren't family members?
[ed note: yikes.]
________________
I suppose that we need a definition of "Value." My definition of "value" stems from providing real and tangible benefit to society en masse. Your definition of "value" are people who create marketable products. If we lived in a world where the rising tide raised all boats, then our definition would be one in the same. We however don't live in that world.
1) The decisions made by these financial supermen are what shipped jobs away. They lobbied for decades, nay, two FULL CENTURIES to loosen trade and monetary restrictions. Their motivations have been to swell their own bankrolls and increase the amount of control their sector has over the world. That's IT. You have some view of the idealistic capitalist marvel, putting money in the hands of only the peoples most beneficial to society. This is not the case. In our current system, profit is not based on what is better for all but rather how someone can best manipulate and coerce both the consumer and market itself. Credit Default Swaps are not valuable to society obviously. Fast food is not obviously all the good for society. However, paying your workers dirt at all costs and increasing your quarterly earnings at all costs are the behaviors that drive these folks. Tricking nieve collage students into getting 4 credit cards is a TOTAL WIN to these people. We're not talking about It's A Wonderful Life kinda bankers. We're talking about Wallstreet kind of bankers. They are not your friend. They live to syphon and the ONLY reason they hold sway is because their influence and value to the system of capitalism has been created by their past syphoning. Banks are not good players and the bottom line is a horrible measure of "value."
2) My grandmother was a poor example. I'm not saying she should be making millions of dollars for shitting her pants and forgetting my birthday but I am saying that reducing her ability to live comfortably since she doesn't add "value" is inhumaine.
And you're right, we're not all delt the same cards. That's why we have civil society in order to level the playing field. Are you saying that investors and hedge fund managers have more value than the people at NASA? Do they have more value than your sick grandmother who can't work? Do you have more value than a janitor? Income != Value. Income is about how much money you can juice out of everyone else. That means that typically the higher your income, the more convincing of a thief you are. Who actually produces value, eh?
________________________
Umm...okay, if you really want to debate.
1) Financial people do create a lot of value. They provide money for companies to function to hire you, to offer your grandma a job, etc. In fact, they provide loans to companies that make parts for satellites, etc. that NASA uses. It's not anyone's "right" to just be given money that isn't there's to do with it what they wish. These financial people have to make hard decisions deciding what are good investments and what are not. Unfortunately, they are often not punished in the longterm financially, but that does not negate the value that they provide to society as a whole
2) your grandma who cannot work DOES NOT provide much value to society. Maybe she DID when she worked or raised her kids who raised you, but that work is passed. Going back to the banker. How much money has your grandma loaned to strangers to start business and employ people that aren't family members?
[ed note: yikes.]
________________
I suppose that we need a definition of "Value." My definition of "value" stems from providing real and tangible benefit to society en masse. Your definition of "value" are people who create marketable products. If we lived in a world where the rising tide raised all boats, then our definition would be one in the same. We however don't live in that world.
1) The decisions made by these financial supermen are what shipped jobs away. They lobbied for decades, nay, two FULL CENTURIES to loosen trade and monetary restrictions. Their motivations have been to swell their own bankrolls and increase the amount of control their sector has over the world. That's IT. You have some view of the idealistic capitalist marvel, putting money in the hands of only the peoples most beneficial to society. This is not the case. In our current system, profit is not based on what is better for all but rather how someone can best manipulate and coerce both the consumer and market itself. Credit Default Swaps are not valuable to society obviously. Fast food is not obviously all the good for society. However, paying your workers dirt at all costs and increasing your quarterly earnings at all costs are the behaviors that drive these folks. Tricking nieve collage students into getting 4 credit cards is a TOTAL WIN to these people. We're not talking about It's A Wonderful Life kinda bankers. We're talking about Wallstreet kind of bankers. They are not your friend. They live to syphon and the ONLY reason they hold sway is because their influence and value to the system of capitalism has been created by their past syphoning. Banks are not good players and the bottom line is a horrible measure of "value."
2) My grandmother was a poor example. I'm not saying she should be making millions of dollars for shitting her pants and forgetting my birthday but I am saying that reducing her ability to live comfortably since she doesn't add "value" is inhumaine.
secret of success? why is mommy crying?
Ya know, in a dumbed down kind of way, [the original post] just enlightened me to the secret of success. Being someone that lost his job on Sept 15, I now know what I must do in life to succeed. Forget the fact that I have applied to well over 130 jobs, with over 30% of them involving my background (property management/facility maintenance/environmental services) and haven't gotten a call back from any of them. I have also extended myself out to services offered by the State of NJ (One Stop Career Services, Professional Networking Group) with little hope of them having a positive effect. My one saving grace is that I have picked up a temporary job driving two hours from my house (and costing 40 bucks a day for gas/tolls) to refinish floors and train employees to do the same. This job will last for about two weeks, and then I'll be back on the search full time. Did I mention this is overnight work? Yep, while normal people sleep, I'm playing zombie and hoping that the company sees VALUE in my services and gives me a full time gig. So this will cover my rent payment for the month of November. I have not fed my family of four, but the utilities will be covered by, well, fuck I really don't know what they will be covered by. I can apply for more government assistance, like the WIC program or TANF, but shit now I'm living off of the gubment. I may get unemployment, but the majority of that will go to my son's daycare, car insurance, ancillary bills (my wife has to have a cell phone and car in her part time job working as a job coach for the disabled), but last time I was unemployed (corpaorate level "restructuring" in 2008) I sucked up most of the bank I had, so I am eligible for 6 weeks worth of payments (4 weeks left if you're keeping track).
But you're right. I have no reason to be mad. I should just take the 5 or so hundred bucks I have and start a fucking business. I'll keep my head up and not be pissed off that becasue of dumb money decisions by a handful of millionaires. But you won't see me outside of Wall St or anywhere protesting, I have kids to take care of and selling drugs is not an option, so I'll be hustling other ways and trying to be a positive person when my kids ask me why mommy is crying.
But you're right. I have no reason to be mad. I should just take the 5 or so hundred bucks I have and start a fucking business. I'll keep my head up and not be pissed off that becasue of dumb money decisions by a handful of millionaires. But you won't see me outside of Wall St or anywhere protesting, I have kids to take care of and selling drugs is not an option, so I'll be hustling other ways and trying to be a positive person when my kids ask me why mommy is crying.
zosobird just flew into chicago: here's his two cents on the unemployment situation
» zosobird (OP) • Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:46 PM
Just flew into Chicago this afternoon and am staying right down the street from the protesters infront of the Fed Reserve bank, and walked right through them. I must say it was a joke (besides the fact that it is SUNDAY and the banks, etc. are all closed). Lot's of people you can tell are creating close to zero actual VALUE on a day to day basis. The "drum circle" was cool though.
Here's my Two Cents on the Unemployment situation.
First of all, I am sincerely sorry for your unfortunate circumstance....but me or anyone else being sorry for your situation does not increase your VALUE to society.
Think about it. Think about it LOGICALLY and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT (take actual action)
Boiling all the Bullshit away, you are left with the equation of NEEDS + VALUES = GAIN
- Find/Realize a NEED
- Provide a product or service of VALUE to fulfill that NEED
- CHARGE MONEY for providing products sold/services rendered
If you are a cook at a restaurant, you realize there is a need for someone to cook the food at said restaurant, and you just so happen to be able to provide that restaurant with value...as you are a cook, and you charge money for your sevices (negotiated with employer prior to employment,etc.)....
However, if your services are no longer required (if there is no NEED for a cook, you can't offer any thing of VALUE)....BE PROACTIVE (this is YOUR personal situation)...
I can't believe this. My understanding of the protest is to bring financial equality to the masses. Fact of Life is that everyone provides a DIFFERENT LEVEL OF VALUE. We are NOT all created equal. We are not all dealt the same cards. Is this Fair? NO. Is Life Fair? NO.
I know I probably sound like an insensitive prick, but the fact of the matter and the situation does not change.
SUCK IT UP. GET OVER IT. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
This whining has got to stop.
Just flew into Chicago this afternoon and am staying right down the street from the protesters infront of the Fed Reserve bank, and walked right through them. I must say it was a joke (besides the fact that it is SUNDAY and the banks, etc. are all closed). Lot's of people you can tell are creating close to zero actual VALUE on a day to day basis. The "drum circle" was cool though.
Here's my Two Cents on the Unemployment situation.
First of all, I am sincerely sorry for your unfortunate circumstance....but me or anyone else being sorry for your situation does not increase your VALUE to society.
Think about it. Think about it LOGICALLY and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT (take actual action)
Boiling all the Bullshit away, you are left with the equation of NEEDS + VALUES = GAIN
- Find/Realize a NEED
- Provide a product or service of VALUE to fulfill that NEED
- CHARGE MONEY for providing products sold/services rendered
If you are a cook at a restaurant, you realize there is a need for someone to cook the food at said restaurant, and you just so happen to be able to provide that restaurant with value...as you are a cook, and you charge money for your sevices (negotiated with employer prior to employment,etc.)....
However, if your services are no longer required (if there is no NEED for a cook, you can't offer any thing of VALUE)....BE PROACTIVE (this is YOUR personal situation)...
I can't believe this. My understanding of the protest is to bring financial equality to the masses. Fact of Life is that everyone provides a DIFFERENT LEVEL OF VALUE. We are NOT all created equal. We are not all dealt the same cards. Is this Fair? NO. Is Life Fair? NO.
I know I probably sound like an insensitive prick, but the fact of the matter and the situation does not change.
SUCK IT UP. GET OVER IT. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
This whining has got to stop.
Thursday, October 6, 2011
this occupy movement is the beginning of something big
“I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war.” –
Abraham Lincoln - In a letter written to William Elkin
"It is the system of nationalist individualism that has to go....We are living in the end of the sovereign states....In the great struggle to evoke a Westernized World Socialism, contemporary governments may vanish....Countless people...will hate the new world order....and will die protesting against it." - H.G. Wells, in his book, “The New World Order”, 1940
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
- Henry Ford
"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans."
- Bill Clinton, USA Today on 3/11/93, page 2a
“Bankers own the earth; take it away from them but leave them with the power to create credit; and, with a flick of a pen, they will create enough money to buy it back again... If you want to be slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let the bankers control money and control credit.”
- Sir Josiah Stamp, Director, Bank of England, 1940.
its all ties together
stop the NWO
END THE FEDERAL RESERVE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFz1VVXsWRU&feature=player_embedded
please do some reading/research...knowledge is power
and know what you are reading! http://www.freepress.net/ownership/chart/main
this occupy movement is the beginning of something big...these are our human rights
http://occupywallstreetdoctrine.blogspot.com/
Abraham Lincoln - In a letter written to William Elkin
"It is the system of nationalist individualism that has to go....We are living in the end of the sovereign states....In the great struggle to evoke a Westernized World Socialism, contemporary governments may vanish....Countless people...will hate the new world order....and will die protesting against it." - H.G. Wells, in his book, “The New World Order”, 1940
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
- Henry Ford
"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans."
- Bill Clinton, USA Today on 3/11/93, page 2a
“Bankers own the earth; take it away from them but leave them with the power to create credit; and, with a flick of a pen, they will create enough money to buy it back again... If you want to be slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let the bankers control money and control credit.”
- Sir Josiah Stamp, Director, Bank of England, 1940.
its all ties together
stop the NWO
END THE FEDERAL RESERVE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFz1VVXsWRU&feature=player_embedded
please do some reading/research...knowledge is power
and know what you are reading! http://www.freepress.net/ownership/chart/main
this occupy movement is the beginning of something big...these are our human rights
http://occupywallstreetdoctrine.blogspot.com/
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